A month ago, my guild and I got into a very heated debate about RSP sites. I found myself making a few friends more than just a little upset at me because I didn’t see anything wrong with the sites at all. They heatedly felt my view was a little clouded and that I didn’t understand the reason why sites like these are considered hurtful and often childish. But at the time I felt that people were simply being too sensitive over a site they had no interest in. As long as they were simply judging the RSP directly and not the person, no harm is really being done. I believed this for quite a while and never really looked at it fully.
Then last night a blog post made by Anna had my question myself about something I tended to ignore or disregard. I went to bed thinking about the ethics behind most sites centered on posting bad role play flags. I began to ask myself honestly if I was the type of person who really advocated things like this despite my affiliations with people that do. I have a few friends who write or post regularly on a few sites displaying these type of things whether it be online or in a livejournal community, but I never really asked myself would I do it too if given the opportunity.
I woke up realizing that when it came right down to it, I really didn’t agree with it nor would I ever do it myself.
I admit to reading sites like these, but unlike others that participate in it, I generally only read it for the occasional shock factor. I normally don’t see too many blatantly obvious ERP flags, so it’s always shocking and even a little hilarious when someone else does manage to locate one. But when it comes to everything else I read there, it really is none of my business or concern. In fact sometimes I just don’t plain care for any of it. I could never pass judgments on people on a daily basis because they didn’t write what I felt makes a perfect RSP. I don’t care if someone described themselves as being utterly beautiful or crossed the realms of silliness with their description. It doesn’t bother me in game if I run across them and it certainly doesn’t bother me when I see them interacting with others. If someone out there is willing to believe and play into it, hey … all the more power to them.
Yes, there are some flags that are either too wordy, too flamboyant, or utterly ridiculous … but why should that be any concern of mines or anyone else? Their existence is claimed to be a bother for these people, but I have yet to find any of these role players ever interrupting anything that I do, so it’s never been a threat to have them near. Still, I stood by my claim that there was no wrong in talking about it openly with others.
But when it comes right down to it, I don’t really condone the act of public humiliation. I know this might make me a bit of a hypocrite since this contradicts everything I ever said when in regards to this. But I’ll just be honest, I don’t go to these sites to read a well-written post about how they can improve, I’m usually just there to read how many jokes everyone can make, poke fun at, and laugh. I also only check these sites because I’m curious as to how many of my friends will be picked on including myself. I never really laugh or get a cheap thrill out of it other than knowing that someone else out there is probably a little bummed that his or her attempt to try and role play was scorned by a bunch of people who has not once tried to role play with them.
Back in the early days of WoW, an RSP was really just a great tool to find other role players who were in character and to give ourselves last names. Descriptions were seldom used because many of us didn’t feel it was important to describe a character when you can SEE them. However, as time went on a few people began to use the feature and we easily got a feel for someone’s writing just by reading their description. When I first started role play in World of Warcraft, I was horrible. My Nigh Elf had a silly name that was constantly mocked and my RSP read as if I was the most beautiful creature you ever set eyes on. It didn’t stop there, either. Every other Night Elf female character I created was the same look and overall ethereal appearance. But despite my inability to be a little realistic, I role played fairly well and was able to entertain a few folks who found my character charming. I had a lot of fun and learned a lot from the experience. I began to see that maybe a few flaws were necessary since being perfect wasn’t always exciting.
When I moved to another role playing server, I created another character I think that broke the rules a little. She was human who grew up in Tanaris and was a classified gypsy dancer. God, I did all sorts of stupid things stupid with that one, haha. I made her just a teeny bit overpowered, created this lavish background for her where she was a dancer and so forth with an exotic appeal, and just all sorts of ‘Arabian nights’ stories. But despite it not fitting exactly into lore, it was absolutely FUN to write about in game! I found people who enjoyed playing the story out with me and I couldn’t wait to hop on and live that little adventure again. The experience taught me that while it’s fun to go a little outside the lines of lore, maybe I should really test myself and make something within it. Still, I had a blast playing her and would love to re-create her today in a more realistic play style.
I had fun with all my baddies no matter how much it didn’t … fit. And I can see every single one of those RSP flags winding up on a community because it was too flowery, broke lore, or something else of that nature. At the time I was having fun and that was really all that mattered. I’m sure a few folks thought my RSP was silly, but I never had anyone publicly bash it. I imagine if any of my RSPs, old or new, was post publicly and received all the negative comments … I’d be crushed, too. There’s a difference between constructive criticism and just plain cruelty.
Today I play a character that is still perhaps considered cliché but fits within the realms of reality and lore, not to mention she’s absolutely FUN to write about. During the early stages of her creations I used some really bad wording to describe her appearance and make her beautiful, but I’ve toned it down a lot since then and have learned a great deal about character creation based on interactions with others. Everyone knows the typical pirate story and that being a pirate is nothing new or original, but I don’t care. I don’t try to be different or set myself apart from the rest, I’m just here to create a character and write away! I’m here to lose myself in a story different from reality and let my imagination run wild. As a role player for years, this has always been a passion of mines, so I’m willing to believe something or play along if it’s entertaining enough.
I think a lot of role players forget that important element: we’re here to have fun! But if that was the case we wouldn’t have sites like Bad RPers Suck where even I have went to on a few occasions to vent. And no, not about bad RSP flags, but just general character reactions and OOC drama that I’ve ran across and felt compelled to blow off steam. There’s a difference between talking about someone’s character and calling it shitty and talking about how someone played their characters interaction with yours and OOCly did something towards you to make the story hideous and not fun.
Now I’m not innocent at all. I do mock a few people with friends when I see RSPs that I feel are a bit strange, but I don’t intentionally bash them in public. I kind of keep it to myself or share it with friends and either avoid them or try to get a feel for their character by (gasp!) role playing with them. I wouldn’t have all the friends I do now in game if I was to constantly and openly judge others that way. Surprisingly, I even met a few friends purely because I was curious about their strange RSP and later realize that they were really just trying to explore or new.
You really can’t judge a book by its cover.
As long as they’re not intentionally harassing or ruining my role play experience with others and I’m still having fun, why should I worry about what others are doing or writing in their stories? For all I know, she or he could be that beginner role player in WoW who’s just trying to have fun herself and explore the realms of fantasy. I was there at some point.
We all were.
Who am I to make judgment? I guess I’m a bit of a hypocrite.
I think most of us started off, as baby newbie RPers, with a little Sue in us, which is my primary problem with the viciousness you sometimes see on some of those sites. I frequent them as well; they’re a guilty pleasure, like ice cream, and sometimes quite funny and well done. But some of them, like Warcraft Sues itself, seem open to a lot of spiteful grudge-bearing or silly misconstruction (I have a friend whose RSP, one of the more obvious satires I’ve seen, was savaged mercilessly on Sues by someone who took it as earnest — hilarious, but also sort of mind-boggling).
Here is my primary problem with them, though:
http://invisibleinkie.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/roleplaying-mediocrity/
It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure for me when it comes to ERP flags, but anything else never interests me. It’s very similar to other sites that regularly talk about role players and their expressed love or hate for how they’re played.
One community I tend to also frequent (since I do a lot of non-WoW related role play) is Roleplay!Secrets. Now here’s a community that really gets its fair share of drama. You think Warcraft Sues is bad? You haven’t seen anything yet. But the only reason I visit the community is to see if something relating to me or a friend is posted there. Anything else like “YOUR VERSION OF CLOUD STRIFE IS SO OUT OF CHARACTER. KILL YOURSELF SLOWLY AND DROP FROM THE GAME, LOSER.” I tend to ignore and shake my head at.
I speak as a general online role player period when I say we role players can be so very serious about our gaming that it’s scary. I think a part of the reason I don’t care much about people who role play differently than I do is because I’ve been the newbie role player before, so I know better than to do upon them what I didn’t want done upon me. I role play with groups online that welcome criticism but scold anyone that does so with the intention to publicly humiliate another individual.
I would love for Moon Guard to incorporate what a few of my other role play havens do by hosting a monthly critique session where people post their characters and allow others to openly share what they feel is good or bad about them. Like how these. role play communities. do it. We’d call it “How’s My Character?” where WoW players would link their wiki or RSP and invite people who interacted with them once or twice to share their thoughts on their character. What are their strengths? What are they weak at? What needs fine tuning and adjusting? It would be fantastic because then people really would learn how to fix their mistakes and improve their character not just from their RSP but overall!
Heck, how many of us know someone with a decent or well-written RSP, but the way they played or handled certain situations was absolutely wrong? More often than not it goes beyond just what we see on an RSP, it would be nice if people could evaluate a character as a whole if the player wishes to know. Even the best written RSPs may have a few things in their actual role play that need be addressed, especially by those interact with said individual on a regular basis.
Unfortunately, our forums don’t have any kind of moderation, so truly cruel comments would scare away anyone who really wanted helpful advice to improve or at least know they’re doing it right.
… but you know, I kind of want to see it done on like a blog or livejournal community for WoW players only which is easily moderated and just let the opinions fly. Sadly, I just don’t have that kind of time to invest into it. Would be nice, though. I’d throw my character out there if I knew she might receive some great tips or advice. I am always volunteering to allow people to critique my non-WoW RP characters in HMD monthly entries so I can improve the quality I play them, so it would be fantastic if I could do the same for Aestiah and crew.
I’m all for giving criticism and trying to tell someone how to improve so as long as you can word it in way that isn’t a form of an attack.
Hmm.
Now, is this a “Wow, no one bothered to make the counterargument against these sites to me before,” post? Because I know people have, you say it yourself that you’ve had these discussions.
Instead, unfortunately, it really comes across as a “This person I look up to disagrees with my old opinion so now I’ve changed my my mind,” post, but I can’t read your mind. I don’t try to judge people personally.
I came up with some fun arguments against Anna’s post last night after reading it; still might post ‘em, though her comment policy intimidates me. Your post today is a lot more reasonable. I can’t pick it apart the same way I can hers, and it’s fine to disagree. Especially today, as it were.
The motives behind my entry is purely after plenty of thinking and evaluating of the many opinions shared with me from friends and bloggers and putting it into final perspective. The biggest one being the fact that I argued this with friends recently again, even with people who don’t role play.
There isn’t anything I can recall that we recently disagreed with where I would suddenly ‘change my mind’ and write this. I think you’re reading just a little too much into it and taking it as a direct attack. But I can see your concerns and simply ask that you understand my intentions are not meant to be vindictive, but reflective.
Well, for my part, I commend the capacity for pointing out that we’ve all been bad at RP before. I started out Roleplaying the Warcraft Universe in Warcraft III, and good lord I don’t even want to talk about some of the stupid RPs I started.
(Fel Orc Blademasters like the Predator, much?)
Anyway, Vare, you’re not the only person in the world with these sites. Judging by the context of your post after reading the OP, you seem to be taking this to heart in an unnecessary way. People can have a genuine change of heart.
Could it be this is only a matter that is / was taken too seriously?
Yes, it’s common for you want to mock someone because you felt they butchered the established lore of whatever game you play. Once you reach a certain level of veterancy in it, it’s easy to smirk and feel a little amused, even post about it and mock the other player.
Does it intimidate players? Absolutely. Unfortunately, it does. People can’t be thick-skinned about something they’ve an emotional investment in. I did mock people way back myself, I was a pretty snarky bastard. I’m as guilty of that as anyone else is, because I did it publically and, perhaps worse, in front of them.
In the end, though, some of them started to change. A year later they’d turn up with another character and be a lot more mature about it, actually have a clue and some would ask for advice on things.
In the end, though, it just feels like everybody’s taking this too seriously. Some want to ( rightfully ) preserve their right to criticize, mock, etc. Some want to ( also rightfully ) be allowed to go on about their business being a half-dragon or Cthulu’s mother-in-law or not fear being mocked ( something everybody dislikes in a social environment; part of human nature ).
I started poorly myself. It was 1999 and I sucked. I was playing World of Darkness. I’m pretty sure a few people mocked me — save for that one person who offered to help me upon discovering I wasn’t even a native english speaker. Things got better from there, sure, because I accepted help, but many of my peers refused and, eventually, faded.
In the end, you’re always learning more about roleplaying with every passing day. It all comes down to inspiration and how much effort you put into it, as well as what you are looking for in your roleplaying experience.
Everyone starts out bending the lore a little bit when they first start role playing WoW. It takes a good long while to even get the lore straight in your head, whilst fighting around all the plot holes that Metzen and crew tend to leave behind.
Newbies- I can forgive, I don’t have a problem with this. My own toon was pretty damned melodramatic and sueish back in the day before I did a massive amount of rectonned and realized “Ohshi-! I’m doin’ it wrong!” I also had a good guild with a pair of teachers, a spouse that’s an English major and a plethora of other good people to help teach me.
There just comes a point however, when certain Lore-ish attributes HAVE to be maintained. My biggest pet peeve is timelines, as people tend to bend these all to hell and back without any sort of logical narrative or common sense. How can you reconcile those that play dragons, or supahspeshul dwagon characters that find twoo wuv in Silvermoon whilst being an obvious Highborne? THAT’S the type of bad role play tags I’m talking about.
Maybe it’s high-faluting of me. Maybe it’s just being elitist.
I just can’t reconcile and look past that. I won’t openly ridicule them, but I can’t just pat them on the head and tell them to continue. I try to offer advice, and if it’s taken- it’s taken. If it’s not, then whatever.
I facepalm all the time at some of the things people come up with. I giggle and then go on doing my thing. That’s about as far as it ever goes. But does it make me angry? No, not really. I’m not irritated or extremely offended knowing they exist in the game like it tends to make other people.
The thing is we were given the opportunity to fix what we were doing wrong without being publicly humiliated by it. I broke lore and did a few stupid things myself, but I had friends who approached me politely about the mistakes I made and was able to improve thanks to their tips.
I’m all for people going out of their way to try and help someone improve their character, I just feel there is a way one should go about doing it that doesn’t lead to them giving up all together. And if they refuse the help because they feel we are either wrong or that we’re ruining their gameplay, all you can do is shrug and move forward. They’ll figure it out when people turn them down or avoid interaction with them. I know I did.
We’ve been spoiled by the addon Flag RSP because of the description factor. I miss the days when all you needed was a last name and a flag that said “I’m a role player!” and that was it. Anything else was left up to you to find out by interacting with the player!
It might be in here somewhere, but what does ERP and RPS stand for?
ERP stands for erotic role play (think adult fanfiction) and RSP is just a a nickname for Flag RSP, the addon used by role players that allows other role players to find each other by descriptions.